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Sapwood and aesthetics http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41149 |
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Author: | Casey Cochran [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Sapwood and aesthetics |
I would like to hear opinions and see pictures of guitars that have sapwood with and without backstrips. Also, if your sides are wide enough to eliminate the sapwood is it desirable to do so? If you must use sapwood on the sides, should it join with the top or back? Any important things to know about when working with it? |
Author: | B. Howard [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Not all sapwood can be used. It depends on the species, some have sapwood that is non functional as wood while others the difference is more cosmetic. |
Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Attachment: P1050902 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1070233 (Medium) (Custom).JPG Attachment: P1070701 (Medium).JPG
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Author: | Colin North [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
As mentioned, not all species have suitable sapwood. But where included. I personally prefer not to use a back strip. On the sides, I prefer to keep it, if proportional and pleasing, and to position it towards the soundboard. |
Author: | Bryan Bear [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Filippo's first post has all the points I was about to make about back strips. As for the sides, it can look nice. I would orient it on the soundboard side since that is the straighter profile and you will plane/sand away less sapwood when you taper the box. Your binding purfling scheme may need to be adjusted depending on the colors you are using. . . |
Author: | Casey Cochran [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Which woods have unsuitable sapwood? Come to think of it, I believe the only guitars with sapwood that I have seen were either Cocobolo or Ziricote. |
Author: | Casey Cochran [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
This is the set that I had in mind when I made the original post. The grain is straight enough that I was considering a strip. The Greenridge in pic #1 makes a compelling argument for no strip with straight grain, though. ![]() |
Author: | PeterF [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Personally, I think a backstrip wouldn't look good on that back. It looks great as it is. And I think sapwood on the sides can look stunning. |
Author: | John Arnold [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
IMHO, it is not a question of species. The viability of sapwood is mainly determined by how the wood was processed. Sapwood is much more vulnerable to decay, fungus staining, and worm holes. If the wood is processed right away, the chance of degrade in the sapwood is much less. Once the wood is dry, degrade stops. The key is timing.....bearing in mind that the degrade happens a lot quicker in the tropics. I have always used a backstrip when sapwood is present in the center of the back, but I just play around with the sides to see which edge looks best. In many cases, the Brazilian RW sides I have used are only large enough to be used one way. Brazilian RW: ![]() ![]() ![]() Interestingly, most people who see sapwood in the raw sets don't like it, but when I show them a finished guitar, they change their mind: ![]() ![]() Amazon RW ![]() Honduran RW: ![]() |
Author: | DennisK [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Casey Cochran wrote: This is the set that I had in mind when I made the original post. The grain is straight enough that I was considering a strip. The Greenridge in pic #1 makes a compelling argument for no strip with straight grain, though. ![]() Gorgeous set ![]() I tend to like backstrips on guitars without sapwood, since the back can be kind of boring otherwise. And with curly woods, I hate the look of the runout inversion at the centerline, but interrupting it with a strip makes it look more symmetrical again. Sapwood is kind of like a natural backstrip... I see no reason to add any more, unless there are symmetry issues needing to be distracted from. I consider it a tragic waste to cut the sapwood off trees before slicing them up. You can always make the sets extra wide, and then chop off the sapwood when joining if you don't like it. Madagascar rosewood is especially sad, because the trees are too narrow for QS backs, and a lot more sets would have the "eye" outside the waist if they kept the extra inch or two of sapwood in the middle. You can always add a center wedge of maple or something for a similar effect, but it doesn't look as nice as the natural edges of the heart to sap transition. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
I love sapwood. I think it can look really cool! Depending on the set, I usually orient the sapwood on the sides towards the back, it can be quite decorative. Attachment: Tailwedge sapwood.JPG Attachment: Back Sapwood.JPG Attachment: BAck Sapwood.JPG
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Author: | Ken Jones [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
![]() I'm in the no-backstrip camp... |
Author: | SteveT [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Attachment: BACK 40 Crop.jpg
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Author: | Tim Mullin [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
I think sapwood works perfectly by itself as a very organic back strip. My personal preference is to find sets which also feature sufficient sapwood on the sides so that it is visible along the entire side. This Malaysian ebony is my favourite example to date: Attachment: Andrew's OM 629 - small.jpg Attachment: Andrew's OM 647 - small.jpg Attachment: Andrew's OM 649 - small.jpg
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Author: | Casey Cochran [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Wow, now THAT'S a nice gift! |
Author: | B. Howard [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
If actual strength was the only concern than most sap wood would be suitable for use as long as it was aesthetically acceptable. We deal with wood in extremely small cross section and it behaves somewhat differently at this scale. sapwood is very open in cellular structure. It was designed and used to transport sugar water (sap) throughout the tree. The heartwood has been "modified from this form to provide a structural element with no other real biological function. Wood does not forget this, it remembers it was a tree, always. As such, sapwood can be more susceptible to movement caused by RH swings. This effect can be magnified by our thin cross sections. Heavier, denser woods seem to have less differences here. As do woods with generally high resin content. I also agree with John about processing. The sapwood in air dried stock always seems a bit punkier. |
Author: | jeb98 [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
So I have some rosewood pieces big enough for fretboards and bridges. So you could make a fretboard with half sapwood and half heartwood, for instance. What do folks think of using sapwood on Fretboards and bridges?? I think it could be used in an interesting way, but I'm not sure if people would think it would look strange. Jonas |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Sapwood on a fretboard? Yup. It can look great. ![]() |
Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Indeed... I try to keep it on the side that won't get dirty though... |
Author: | LanceK [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
I have a sapwood fetish. Here are 4 of mine. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | nickinbruns [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Bubinga.... Attachment: image.jpg Blackwood.... Attachment: image.jpg Ziricote.... Attachment: image.jpg I prefer the sapwood without a backstrip. In fact, if the bookmatch is good, I prefer no backstrip at all... |
Author: | Pmaj7 [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Tony and Fili, well played on the fretboards! I generally like sapwood on the back if it is not parallel to the seam and has an ending. (such as Nicki's) Or if it is, as long as it's not wider than a quarter inch per side. |
Author: | Pmaj7 [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: Attachment: Back Sapwood.JPG Sapwood heaven from the sapwoodwhisperer. Well that JPG didn't transfer, but I was referring to his/her cocobolo guitar. |
Author: | Phil Marcus [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Sapwood and aesthetics |
Holy kaleidoscope, Batman! Youse guys are reeeeeaaaal good! Take it from me, otherwise known as "wierdo artist guy" - More asymmetry, please. |
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